Curse

Pick Me · Jun 06, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Why are you people so angry at duplicate skills? I read some people wanted a duplicate 100 blades. Now if you can have 2 elites on the same bar, fine, but if you can't in a PvP (like you can't have it in PvE) then what good does a duplicate 100 blades do you?

Vampiric Bite & Vampiric Touch (Necro)
Griffon Sweep & Leviathan's Sweep (Warrior)
Lightning Orb & Lighning Hammer (Elementalist)
Archane Larceny & Archane Thievery (Mesmer)
Divine Healing & Heaven's Delight (Monk)
Tiger's Fury & Beastial Fury (Ranger)

Why is everyone picking on a necro's duplicate skill? Is it because its a self-healing skill? Is it because its a fast recharge skill? Is it because its a skill, not an attack/spell? It COSTS 15 ENERGY!!! Griffon Sweep only costs like 5? It has a recharge time of 5 and its instantaneous! Is it overwhelming?

Divine Healing heals an obsene amount of damage. Double it with Heaven's Delight and the recharge time is very bareable. Tiger's Fury & Beastial Fury, diversion one, and the other gets used, and the opponent dies.

There are many posts saying how to defeat a touch ranger (N/R or R/N). Why bother nerfing skills? If you are going to nerf it (because you have a difficult time countering it, or you can't counter it at all), then nerf every skill. Nerf running (my monk has no running skills - if I used a Mo/N), so nerf all running skills. My monk has no hand-to-hand fighting skills, nerf all sword/hammer/axe skills. Nerfing skills for 1 profession will make that profession whine and complain about being nerfed. Being singled out and then complain about getting beaten by other professions and stating they should be nerfed too.

ANet has their reasons for making duplicate skills, instead of having them as core skills. If you are not careful, ANet may delete these duplicate skills and replace them with totally brand new skills. Of course you now must buy them, and the old duplicate skills will be removed from your PvP and PvE characters. Lost skill point and money.

I mean is the Ranger overpowered? They are so diversified that they should be able to handle themselves in any situation. The skills I listed are just samples of the duplicate skills/spells that can be found. Besides, if you can't beat them, join them.

LamerFlamer · Jun 06, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

To counter touch rangers...Easy EASY EASY subject. Like everyone else said, E-denial, knock em on their butts then take em out. My AoD (yes I still use the AoD spiking build) kills touch rangers easily. If they use whirling defense, end AoD then kite. Once you get the AoD combo off, end AoD and let degen kill them...DEGEN, E-Denial, Interrupts...Practically any mesmer domination skill...

Dravyn · Jun 06, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Why is everyone picking on a necro's duplicate skill? Is it because its a self-healing skill? Is it because its a fast recharge skill? Is it because its a skill, not an attack/spell? It COSTS 15 ENERGY!!! Griffon Sweep only costs like 5? It has a recharge time of 5 and its instantaneous! Is it overwhelming?

I think the problem lies in the fact that when its used in conjunction with maxed Expertise it does *not* cost 15 energy, spams 65 dmg and 65 heal repeatedly, and creates a two slot build that can kill most characters with little or no trouble, while leaving six slots free to fill with defensive skills or what have you, whereas most characters have to fill their 8 slots with abilities and, for the most part, depend on all 8 of those to get the job done. Touch Rangers really don't. That's where the complaints come in.

Imagine the elementalist skill Stone Daggers doing 50 damage and healing for 50 health to the caster and all the while ignoring armor. That skill is fast, low cost, and spammable. It would create the same problem. As fast and spammable as Stone Daggers is, there's a reason it does low damage...

Pick Me · Jun 06, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I think the problem lies in the fact that when its used in conjunction with maxed Expertise it does *not* cost 15 energy, spams 65 dmg and 65 heal repeatedly, and creates a two slot build that can kill most characters with little or no trouble, while leaving six slots free to fill with defensive skills or what have you, whereas most characters have to fill their 8 slots with abilities and, for the most part, depend on all 8 of those to get the job done. Touch Rangers really don't. That's where the complaints come in.

Imagine the elementalist skill Stone Daggers doing 50 damage and healing for 50 health to the caster and all the while ignoring armor. That skill is fast, low cost, and spammable. It would create the same problem. As fast and spammable as Stone Daggers is, there's a reason it does low damage...

I must have misread the Expertise definition. I read it as reduces cost of any ATTACK SKILL, PREPARATION skill, TRAP skill. Last time I read Vampiric Bite/Touch it said Skill (not attack skill/Sword skill/Bow skill/Axe skill/Hammer skill). So Vampiric Bite/Touch is an attack skill? Then evading and dodging will work, as should blindness, right? I think someone said Blindness doesn't work on Vampiric Touch/Bite, which it should, if its an attack.

Lol, I think you and I are going to give people more complaints.

Your contribution was the Imagine the elementalist using Stone Daggers and gaining health each time. My contribution is cast Vampiric Spirit and then cast Stone Daggers.

Definition of Vampiric Spirit:
For 5-17 seconds, your spells cost 3 more energy, but whenever you cast a spell you steal up to 5-41 health from one nearby foe. This is an elite skill.

Cast Stone Daggers (5/0/1) - under VS (8/0/1)
Damage: 8-24 per stone - under VS (8-24 per stone + 5-41 health steal)

Dravyn, there you have it, over 50 points of damage + healing (not affected by scourge healing)

The truly evil people will use:
Enfeebling Touch
Vampiric Spirit
Stoning
Aftershock

Dead opponent (or pretty much dead); you don't need to touch the guy either, just be "near".

Uh, oh... anyone want to complain about this?

TwinRaven · Jun 06, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

No, with plague touch and any nearby enemy a regular ranger isn't near as much trouble as a Touch Ranger. Regular Ranger attacks are *counterable* whereas touch spamming is not, at least as far as warriors are concerned. TR doesn't need a sustained attack when they can easily down a warrior in 3 seconds that isn't getting spamhealed by a monk. However, I will add that after I posted earlier I was able to kill a touch ranger with a War/N sever/gash Virulence build because it became a plague touch fight after that. I still died, but so did he. My teammates weren't all that happy with my spreading poison about, but hey, I was able to beat a touch ranger...

As far Touch Rangers being "easily rendered helpless" I'd have to disagree. Warriors are "easily rendered helpless". Conditions don't mean jack to a TR as long as he's got plague touch, which he will most assuredly have since he only needs two slots for spammable attacks. Basically, nobody can dish the pain that touchers can and only use two slots to do it. The remaining six slots can be built to whatever they desire, defense, that leaves them virtually untouchable by melee. What a lot of you fail to realise is its that limited dependancy on abilities for damage that makes them overpowered.

As for plague touch, we could also use Plague Sending or antidote sig for condition removale...the latter of which is a Ranger skill...not usually part of a touch build. Plague sending costs more, being a spell, but would send conditions to more than just the warrior. Stances are a big part of not getting hit (along with Throw Dirt...they already nerfed my beloved Dust Trap when I run Trapper-builds)...tell me you can't remove a stance from a ranger as a warrior...tell me you can't remove conditios...tell me you can't cripple or daze...c'mon...you just want touchies as easy to kill as the usual soft targets and it bugs you that you can't kill one on your own because you are happy with your build and don't want to change.

Although, I will agree, without proper support Warriors fall to just too many builds imo. There are far too many ways to render a warrior useless. But that's a different rant.

Any skill/spell that disables the Vampiric skills (even if it effects only one) will drop a touchie. Add to that stance removal (Wild Blow) and he drops even quicker. Seriously, just look at the skills that hit the touchie at their core...energy theft & denial, cripple & kite, skill & stance disable...heck a daze skill/spell would give ample time to do some damage...touchie is completely counterable if you are`willing to do a bit of homework...not sure, but wouldn't Wail of Doom at a high Soul Reaping disable attack skills? Up to 16 seconds...how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Touch Ranger? The world may never know.

Sure, -65,-65,-65...can rob you and heal me...but disable one of the two "all powerful" skills and you reduce healing and damage by 1/2...all the eggs are in one basket (so to speak). I was running around "Noob Island" to farm Naga Pelts...those damned Dragon Irises kept spamming Distraction and my touchie starved to death...

Touch of Agony costs 2 energy with Expertise of 16, while the Vamp Bite costs 5 and gives 15 more health/damage every other "hit"...do the math, the damage to energy ratio is better with ToA, but the healing is better with Vamp Bite...either way, the build is what it is...having 2 identical skills isn't that much of a help...if fact, it took me a while to adjust my play style because I kept spamming away all my energy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nothing is wrong with the build...It just happens to be one build that makes warriors soft targets. Warriors are just used to being at the top of the "stand and whack" gang...now they have a worthy foe, they cry "foul"...Every build has a counter, every build is weak to another...strategy overcomes weakness.

I have no problem with dropping identical skills if it happens across the board. Just don't "nerf" the touchie because it offers a viable counter to warriors...who else can stand up to them with any hope of not taking a quick dirt nap? Even with a touchie...unless the warrior is my first target, I'm out of energy by the time he's dead and quite vulnerable...air spiker, conditions ranger or necro and I'm often done-for if I don't keep an eye on them.

It is not a godly build. JR's comment about them being rediculous is pretty much on the mark. They are limited in playability and seriously goofy when you think about them and how they work. Personally, I find them fun...the ONLY people who ever get mad when they die are the warriors because they aren't used to it. I type "good game all...well done." after my team loses...the warrior I killed twice says "STFU you hybrid freak!!!" ...and his team won!

I see the point of view with people having problems with the doubled skills...It is built in as part of the appeal to buying Factions...while ANet says they aim to keep the balance, it is undeniable that anyone buying both games will have a greater variety of skills and therefor a bit of an advantage.
The advantage of having Vamp Bite and Touch is negligable...all the problems people have had with touch rangers have been there since the beginning...play to counter...and once again...NO NERF NEEDED!!!

Cirian · Jun 06, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I think touch ranger vampires are fine. Lets have a look at some builds and see just how fragile they really are:

16 Expertise
12 Blood Magic
4 Wilderness Survival

11-22 Dark damage wand, 20% chance of faster recharge, +5 energy under 50% life
+12 energy focus, 20% chance for +1 Blood Magic, +30 life
druid's armour, +7 energy, sup vigor, sup expertise, minor wilderness

total: 485 life, 44 energy

(Defensive build)
1. Vampiric Touch
2. Vampiric Bite
3. Plague Touch
4. Throw Dirt
5. Escape {E}
6. Dodge
7. Troll Unguent (5 regen, 100 life total)
8. Rez Signet

(Aggressive build)
1. Vampiric Touch
2. Vampiric Bite
3. Plague Touch
4. Zojun's Haste
5. Dodge
6. Offering of Blood {E}
7. Awaken the Blood (boosts touches to 74 damage, 77 if the +1 kicks in)
8. Rez Signet

(+ many many variant builds!

)

A reliable ranged snare (cripshot / water hex) is devastating to these builds. It's already been said so many times in this thread too!

Dangerous Daz · Jun 06, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

for assassins out there i have 2 words for you: temple strike, as long as you keep attacking and get those killer moves in, you should come out on top

SnipiousMax · Jun 06, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

^^ Another thing to be noted. Is that even with Offering of Blood, a Touch Ranger is losing almost four energy a second (3.67 is probally closer). With 44 energy that is 11 - 12 seconds total that they can spam Touch/Bite before running out of energy. Granted that doesn't take into account that they will not be casting it every second if their target is kiting... But it's easy to see that they are not very energy efficient even with expertise and energy management.

Evilsod · Jun 06, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

There is of course 1 major weakness.

Hit them with a surprise Diversion while they're chasing someone else. There damage is instantly cut in half for the next 60 seconds or they simply cannot heal for the next 6. Same goes for Blackout. I'm sure this has been mentioned multiple times though

RandomEngy · Jun 06, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LamerFlamer

To counter touch rangers...Easy EASY EASY subject. Like everyone else said, E-denial, knock em on their butts then take em out. My AoD (yes I still use the AoD spiking build) kills touch rangers easily. If they use whirling defense, end AoD then kite. Once you get the AoD combo off, end AoD and let degen kill them...DEGEN, E-Denial, Interrupts...Practically any mesmer domination skill...

I'm still running it too... the mana situation isn't pretty but it's still fun. But they aren't exactly a counter to touch rangers. Good ones will Plauge Touch off the degen onto the nearest person, then heal back up off your friend before you get your energy back. They won't go running after an AoD assassin.

And to whoever thought taking Wild Blow in RA was a good idea: Warriors in RA need to take a lot of skills: if they don't take Sprint/Rush they're screwed, they need to take a Res signet, then Healing Signet so they don't just get degenned out, then an attack speed increase skill and then condition removal if they don't want to spend half of their time shut down. That leaves 3 precious slots to deal damage with. You're sorely mistaken if you think eating one of those slots with Wild Blow, just to annoy touch rangers, is a good plan. What's a hammer warrior with Devastating, Crushing and Heavy? At the very least decent. What's a hammer warrior with 2 of the 3? A gimp.

And it appears that people have completely missed the discussion so far, because they're still spouting on about how the prescence of counters always mean a skill is balanced. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they just missed it while reading the thread rather than just reading the first 3 posts and pointing out their oh-so-originial insight that cripshot rangers do well against them. So I'll make it bold:

Just because a build has counters does not mean it's perfectly balanced.

To elaborate, if the counters are limited so that only a handful of build types can do anything against them (big healing, hex snare, Apply/Cripshot, energy drain, Diversion if they're not paying attention), yes it's overpowered. Compare that to the list for any other class and it seems stupidly short. Assassins, Warriors and non-touch Rangers all have to deal with blocking, evading, blind, weakness, and the whole Curses line, which makes for an astoundingly high list of counters right there. Warriors still have to deal with still more counters, including the snares mentioned above. The only special handicap is energy denial, which can be fought by focus swaps and gotten out of with Offering. It doesn't come up outside of RA because you can guaruntee you have a good healer, but when you just have to make a good all-around build and hope for the best, it is a problem.

And just for the record, for every annoying build in the history of Guild Wars, people have procaimed loudly that there were counters for it, so it shouldn't be changed. Ether Renewal giving smiters astoundingly high healing and energy? It's not broken! You can use enchant removals or Signet of Humility! Chain Lightning doing a huge amount of AoE damage? It's fine! Just spread out and Prot Spirit! Nature's Renewal removing every hex and enchant when it's put down? It's balanced! Just interrupt the spirit-layer! Notice a trend here? These problems go deeper than just whether there are or are not counters for something. They disrupt the metagame enough that it makes it less interesting and more flat, so they get a tweak.

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 06, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

TR: I will touch you!
Mesmer: I'm casting Diversion on TR!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

TR: I will touch you!
Ranger: I'm using Spike Trap!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

TR: I will touch you!
Ranger: I'm using Pin Down!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

Ruricu · Jun 06, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

The truly evil people will use:
Enfeebling Touch
Vampiric Spirit
Stoning
Aftershock

Dead opponent (or pretty much dead); you don't need to touch the guy either, just be "near".

Uh, oh... anyone want to complain about this?

Heh, the only real difference there is that you have less armor and that is a tri-spec, leaving you little to none for energy storage...

Just tested it... didn't go so well... can't target your life steal... if they move they don't get it... runs out of energy too fast... etc. etc. etc.

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Lightning Orb & Lightning Hammer (Elementalist)

Err, Orb shoots a projectile, hammer just does straight damage and costs 10 more energy... Not a duplicate.

RandomEngy · Jun 06, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

TR: I will touch you!
Mesmer: I'm casting Diversion on TR!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

TR: I will touch you!
Ranger: I'm using Spike Trap!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

TR: I will touch you!
Ranger: I'm using Pin Down!
TR: Oh no! I have been defeated!

In the diversion case you can go after the mesmer and avoid having your skills disabled. Steal all the mesmer's life inbetween casts and you're golden. With non-covered cripple, getting close to someone on the enemy team is pretty easy. And after that happens the TR has a crippled target to feed on. Maybe you don't play as/against good touch rangers?

Robin_Anadri · Jun 07, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

*Yawn* The whining has gotten really old.

There will always be builds that you can't counter 1v1. Guild Wars is a *team* game.

The problem is, warriors aren't used to losing a 1v1 to any class. It happens, but they can generally expect their higher armor and ability to deal damage even without energy or adrenaline to win the day. Touch rangers have been pwning warriors 1v1 for months, but it's only with the release of Factions and the doubled vamp touch skill that it's gotten common. Before that, at the end of *very occasional* touch ranger/warrior confrontations, the dead warrior would be laying on the floor of the random arena wondering if anybody got the license plate of that truck that hit them. Now that the build is commonly known, it happens all the time, and they know why.

But that doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It just means that warriors have to adjust their tactics. Just like any other class has to adjust its tactics when a particular build becomes popular.

There's not really an individual counter to IWAY, it requires a team who knows what they're doing. Same with touch rangers. If you insist on playing RA, you're *going to hit touch rangers.* Accept it. Prepare for it. And here's a novel concept, talk with your team about how to deal with the threat and gang up on the poor vampire. No touch ranger can survive the concentrated attention of 2 or more players, regardless of their class.

And get over your stupid inflated ego. So you got pwned 1v1? That's PvP. Welcome to *balance.*

Shendaar · Jun 07, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

The comparison with IWAY makes no sense. IWAY is effective as a team ... I never encountered a lone warrior with IWAY that was much of a threat. You need a prepared team to kill an IWAY team, but why would you need a prepared team to kill a single enemy on the battlefield?

I tried TR earlier myself and I couldn't stop laughing. I saw everything from rangers and warriors trying to protect themselves with stances, Mesmers spamming distortion, Monks spamming Guardian and Life Sheath. There's just nothing that can protect them from Life stealing. Even that Diversion mesmer failed as she could not cast it often enough for me to get caught in it. Fire ele are the biggest joke ever, as you can just Plague Touch all the burning they throw at you and laugh as you kill them twice as fast. Blackout proved to be only a minor annoyance as the mesmer would be dead before being able even cast it a second time. Rangers are only a problem when they get lucky and hit when both my dual "Dodge" combo is recharging, otherwise they can't even hit me for the most part.

I died maybe three times at most and aside from a team that just spiked me into oblivion right in the beginning(nothing that exposed the build weakness), I didn't die before I could drop atleast one of them.

From what I have experienced so far, the other team either needs to gang up all on me or they need someone with a specialised build to counter me, like a mesmer running Diversion with Mantra of Recovery.

LightningHell · Jun 07, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

It's common practice to pair Diversion up with Glyph of Renewal or Mantra of Recovery. Glyph Dom/Recovery Dom ftw.

zeno · Jun 07, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

I've been running into touch rangers every 2 or 3 rounds in RA for the past few days. I believe they are pretty fair against intermediate players. The only time I've lost to them was when I roll a horrible team, in which case I'd have lost regardless to many other fair teams.

Other than that, I've never really had problems against touch rangers as dom mes, AoD asn, a bow ranger, or a war. I found there's really no need to bring skills that specifically counter touch rangers. A decent self heal + kiting is really all you need. As has been said many times before, touch rangers have to keep on leeching or they're screwed. Defensive stances won't save them for more than a brief duration. It's not like in pve where you can hit any mob at any time and expect them to drop. A smart pvp'er is an opportunistic pvp'er. Keep your eyes open in order to fight the battles you can win and run from the ones you can't, it's really not that difficult to do.

If you have multiple of them on you, you're screwed anyways. It's not a matter of it now being bloodspike instead of any other forms of spike. In fact, I'd fear much more a hammer or ranger spike than a bloodspike even though you can use defensive stances on the former.

like JR- said, don't suck and learn to play.

unholy guardian · Jun 07, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

waaaiiitt people, how bought instead of the nerf bat... we just add skills to counter it somehow? I'm sure the rit in all its ritly spirit goodness would have something potential that could be added. I mean there could be a spirit or spell or something, rit in ra then, yes. Classes feel more wanted? yes, people have a counter and should use it so its balanced? yes.

Besides with all the evasion or something, spirits be my choice.. i mean they are almost godly lol, or you could just go get churning earth, knocks down people moving faster than normal.

Hiero · Jun 07, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy guardian

waaaiiitt people, how bought instead of the nerf bat... we just add skills to counter it somehow?

Just so I'm sure, you want more ways to kill touch rangers? It is almost too easy as it is now.

sdliddo · Jun 07, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I'd say dont bother with the nerf. Touch rangers aint that bad and all these NERFs you guys are ASKING for is things that will NERF skill sets of NECROMANCERS.

Besides... the idea is fun but full of limits. I do like the way EXPERTISE cheapens the energy thing but even that doesnt do justice to a real necromancer.

Besides... touching someone against a necro doing ranged attacks like vampiric gaze + jaundiced Gaze + shadow strike? Couple in the degen of conjure phantasm then hit them with a blackout if they get too near?

There are tons of necromancer and mesmer skills that would kill a touch ranger. So i do not see why someone wants to nerf something perfectly within the rules?